Other ways to learn besides MSF course?

[PattiS]

So I had a complete failure with the MSF course and I’m incredibly frustrated with myself. More honestly, it wasn’t a complete failure. I’d done the new First Ride class and really enjoyed it, but it wore me out quite a bit. I did the first classroom section of the new rider course on Thursday evening, and yesterday was the first day of the riding part. The first thing that happened was that the bike they gave me was a little too tall for me, but mainly it was way too wide, and I couldn’t comfortably straddle it and walk it around. At the beginning of the class, they have you all walk your bikes down the range to the cones, so you’re in a line to start going back and forth across the parking lot. I was put in the last position, so I had to push the bike farther than everyone else, and I could barely get it to move, it just didn’t want to roll. It was taking me FOREVER and killing my shoulders and arms and everything. Then we started going back and forth and I realized it was too wide even when I was sitting and riding, I couldn’t get my feet on the pegs comfortably, and then we’d have to walk it to turn it around at the ends of the runs and I was really struggling. I mentioned it to the instructor and he said there wasn’t another bike. At this point, if I hadn’t done the First Ride and known it wasn’t always like this, I would have decided to quit. The third time I brought up the issue, they gave me a different bike and it was like night and day – it pushed ok, and it wasn’t too wide. But the friction zone was totally different, and the throttle, and I didn’t get time to get used to the new feel by the time they were moving on to the next thing, and I was exhausted and aching from pushing the first )%#!!!@(^ bike! Plus it was in the 40s and raining. So I felt like I started from way behind, and I never felt like I caught up. By hour 5, I didn’t feel like I was learning anything, just trying to get through, and at the end I stopped and didn’t pull in the clutch pedal enough and I dumped the bike over. Again with the %Q#%*&)*!. :/

We went back to the classroom for the rest of the day and I aced the written test, 100%. There were a bunch of times on the range where everything went smoothly and I was in the zone and it was SO FUN. But I couldn’t go back today and do another 5 hours on the range. I’m older, not in bad shape, but I’m really small, and I’m so stiff and achy today I can barely move, let alone ride a bike and learn 20 new things.

I’m really frustrated because this seems like the only way to learn if you don’t have a SO to teach you, and it’s great if you’re young and bounce back easily, but I’d never do *anything* this physical and new for 5 hours at a stretch, 2 days in a row. I feel like I did damage to myself yesterday, and that I wouldn’t even be able to do an hour today. I think I could be a very competent rider, but I’d like to practice things about 10 times as much as they give you time to do in the MSF course. I didn’t feel like anyone in the class would be competent or safe on the streets after this class. There was one guy in particular that I think will be a real hazard, but he’ll pass the course because he can physically make it through (he said he’d bought a 1000cc motorcycle and he’d never even been on a bike before, and he was really arrogant, but was never in good control of his 250cc bike in class).

So does anyone have any suggestions? I really did like it and I don’t want to give up. I’m thinking about just buying a bike, and finding someone who can help me practice in a parking lot. Ideally, I’d like to do an hour at a time, and really get good at something before I moved on to the next thing, rather than have someone with a stopwatch telling me I have to stop and move on to the next thing. (or YELLING at me – one of the teachers yelled at everyone, she’d turn all red, even – but that’s another issue) The finding someone to help part is an issue, I don’t have friends who ride.

Pardon the length of my kvetch. I’m REALLY frustrated with not being able to just muscle through this course.

[Astir]

I am so sorry it didn't work out for you and you are so frustrated. :hug2: My airplane partner had a similar situation, and it took us two years to get him to go back. I hope we are able to help you where it will not be that long to get you on two wheels.

Did you like the other instructor in the class? I don't know about Washington, but a few of our instructors do 'private' sessions for people. Perhaps some of the ladies from your area will know of MSF instructors who are willing to do this.

What is wonderful about your post is 1. you didn't give up on motorcycling completely. 2. you recognize MSF is only the beginning. They start by showing you the skills, then it is up to you to go home and practice them. 3. you understand your limits and are honoring them.

Deep breath - it will be OK. So proud of you for voicing your frustration, and for recognizing it for what it is and seeking help. :thumbsup:

[ImaSoftT]

PattiS I'm so sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with the MSF class. The classes are designed to teach you the proper way to execute the basics of motorcycle riding, and not to make you a proficient rider after just two days. Learning from an individual can leave you with a lot of bad habits that will be both hard to break and possibly dangerous. Also, you will receive discounts on your insurance if you have your certificate which in the long run will worth the effort. So please reconsider and complete the class. We are all pulling for you, we know you can do it.

[ridingAK]

The MSF class should not feel like work. The instructors are at fault for not getting you a good bike that fir you from the beginning. The aching muscles, etc. are from trying to shove around a bike that clearly was not right for you.

As Astir said, look into private classes where you can go at your own pace. You already have the most important skill for being a safe rider, recognizing your limits, now we just need to work on your basics! :hug2:

[PattiS]

Thank you guys for the encouragement! I would do the class again, but not until I worked through it all at my own pace so I wasn't coming in cold. I just don't learn that way, and I need to build up my stamina, too, I guess.

I had asked the MSF people if they would do private classes, and they said it would be $100 an hour with a 2-hour minimum. I understand they have liability issues, so it makes sense, but that's out of my range. I did like the other instructor, but I don't know how to get hold of him, and I'm not sure if he wouldn't get in trouble with the MSF if he did a private thing. He was encouraging - he said I'd never be an agressive rider, which is ok with me (my car is an old Volvo), but he did think I could be a competent rider and have fun with it.

[Gitana]

I took my first MSF class through Evergreen Safety down in Renton. It was horrible, and I failed. Why? Because everyone in the class already knew how to ride, I was one of the few who had never been on a motorcycle and the instructors were not patient. I fell, twice, which means you're automatically kicked out.

I called Evergreen and got most of my money refunded toward another class. This time, I went to Kirkland. It's a smaller group, better instructors and I passed with flying colors. I will say that on both occasions, I was tired and sore from using muscles I don't usually use. But it was bearable. If I were in your shoes, I would give the MSF class another go, but choose a different location and talk to the instructors about your first experience before the class starts. Frankly, it's very expensive to have private instruction. If you've got the resources, great. If not, try the class again. And whatever you do, don't have friends or an SO or spouse teach you. It's a recipe for disaster.

You can do this. Trust me on this!

[Luna Tique]

:hug2: I am sorry you came out of what should have been a wonderful experience in a state of total frustration.

I say don't let this keep you from reaching your dream.

Take a deep breath, sign up again ( maybe in a different location) ;):

[Paragon]

First, don't give up! OK, you already have that one licked. Everything else is workable.

Don't go back to the course just yet. Heal up, rest up, and get your mind prepared. Work on your core strength, and upper body--it'll help with some of the physical stuff.

Is there maybe a Meet-up group in your area for MC? Maybe a local group of riders? Maybe one of those members would be willing to coach you one-on-one. Of course, you have to recognize a good rider when you see one (some people have horrible habits).

I will also say, not just MC groups, but look to see if there are any scooter groups. Many scooter riders also ride MC.

You can do it! :pompom:

[ImaSoftT]

You might check with your local Harley Davidson dealer, the ones here in Texas offer MSF classes through their shop. Even if you have no intention of buying a Harley, they won't know that and they have a vested interest in you learning to ride and enjoying it, of coarse they hope you will buy a bike from them. I'm just saying it may be another resource to check out. Sure wish one of us was real close to buddy up with you, but we are all there in spirit.

[Queen]

Around here they offer courses that meet over a weekend and ones that meet after work. The after work ones are longer in # of days but shorter amounts of time in each class... maybe something like that would be better?

[demenshea]

Well, everyone else has mostly said it all, but let me add a couple of things.

See if there is another course in your area. Each rider range is different and so are the machines that they use. In CA they use 250 honda rebels and nighthawks on some and only 125cc bikes on others. In Reno, NV they use those Korean motorbikes in both a cruiser and sportbike style so you can get the feel of both. All of those machines are relatively light and none are tall. I am not sure what they were using at your range, but see if you can make sure the next class has different bikes.

Normally your MSF coach makes sure the bike you are riding fits you and will jockey the class to try and get everyone fairly situated. It's normal to begin by duck-walking the bike in a straight line from the saddle. I have not seen anyone that could not do this, unless as you claim, it's just too tall. I can't imagine why at that point they didn't have you trade machines with another person! Btw, what is your inseam?

Rider's Edge (http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/Get_On_A_Bike/Learn_To_Ride/learn_to_ride.jsp?locale=en_US) is the Harley equivalent of the MSF but it is normally taught on sportsters, which are very heavy, but are cruisers so they are low. No problem touching. They also use Buells, but I am not sure they are using those anymore. It's certainly worth looking into as an alternative to the terrible experience you have already encountered.

Something to consider...my friend Syd failed her class three times. She finally passed bought a V-star 650 and rode it over 300 miles to her home. She had NEVER ridden before except in the rider course. She now has owned two bikes and has ridden well over 300,000 miles in 6 years. She is amazing but had a rocky start. If you wanna do it...you will. ;):

[Cyclone67]

hi Patti,

Where did you take your class? I did mine at puget sound safety in Tacoma, (twice). Yep, some of us need a bit more time- so don't beat yourself up. Anyways, maybe a weekend trip is worth it to take a good class at another location. All the instructors were great, very supportive. And 90percent of the bikes were rebels and the little intruders, so size will not be a issue , the guys were rushing to get the few bigger bikes (nighthawks) that they had. My instructor works at the Lakewood triumph store, Vena - she was great, I did some rides with her before I came out to Hawaii.

[YahmahaDawn]

I just took the course in August and I completely understand.Most of the group I was in had little or no experience so we started even(except I was the oldest in the group) Don't give up learning to ride! It is one of the BEST things I have ever done and I am getting better and more confident with every mile.Just rolled over 1013 miles on my bike and am planning to keep riding until the snow flies.Hoping to move on to a bigger bike next summer.From one new rider to another keep working at it and vent when you need to.Here is wishing you success with your adventure :)

[PattiS]

It's really nice to hear everyone's stories! I thought people just generally breezed through the MSF course. I'm definitely going to be looking around for other options. The one I took was in Auburn, quite a drive away from where I am.

A couple of specifics - the bike I used for my First Ride class was a 250 Rebel, and fit me well. I got tired pushing it around, but duck-walking it was very do-able. The first bike they gave me yesterday was some kind of Suzuki, and it was pretty low, but WIDE, and it didn't want to roll. They eventually changed me to some kind of Kawasaki that was low and narrow, and it rolled. Of the three, I preferred the Rebel. And I don't mind muscle soreness. When I started lifting weights, I got sore, and I kind of like the feeling. This was like starting out with 30 pound weights instead of working up from 10 pounds. I was worn out almost immediately. Also, nobody else in my class had much experience, but I think I was twice as old as most of them, and 3 times as old as the youngest pup. O.O The male instructor was older than me. I don't know my inseam, but I'm short, 5'2".

I am encouraged! I'm going to check into other classes but will probably hold off on doing anything until after I go to the Motorcyle Show in December. I think I'm going on the Saturday.

[ridingAK]

I need to get in touch with Gitana, and try to meet up with you at the show!

[PattiS]

Yes! I'll buy you guys a cup of coffee (or mocha, or triple soy latte, or whatever). :)

[Follow]

Rider's Edge (http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/Get_On_A_Bike/Learn_To_Ride/learn_to_ride.jsp?locale=en_US) is the Harley equivalent of the MSF but it is normally taught on sportsters, which are very heavy, but are cruisers so they are low. No problem touching. They also use Buells, but I am not sure they are using those anymore. It's certainly worth looking into as an alternative to the terrible experience you have already encountered.
;):


I'm with D on this one, I know a lot of gals that took this one and the nice thing is they usually have more than one instructor there so you can get some one on one.:thumbsup:

[asymons412]

Hey Patti!

I'm a pretty new rider myself (only took the MSF course two months ago), and can completely relate to your frustration on the range... especially after acing the book-smarts test! :mghissyfit: When it was time to move on to the next exercise, I was always caught between that "can't we do a few more laps on this?" feeling and "well, maybe it's good the instructor is pushing me along..."

One thing that might help: I took my MSF course over the course of 3 days, not two; one day for the book-smarts, and then two days on the range the following weekend. It helped me to spread it out and have some time to take a deep breath. Maybe see if the MSF course near you is offered over two weekends?

[Gitana]

I need to get in touch with Gitana, and try to meet up with you at the show!

I'm available either Saturday or Sunday; let me know!

[Luna C]

Does Washington have an intermediate course? In Oregon I was able to get my permit, practice a lot (my husband was an awesome teacher), then take the 1-day intermediate course on my own bike. It let me concentrate on getting through the course, rather than dealing with a new bike. I was exhausted from the one-day, and always thought the beginner course would have been WAY too much for me.

You've already learned the techniques for riding from the class, so getting a bike and practicing is do-able.

Good luck and hang in there!

[Gitana]

I don't think Washington has an intermediate course, or not one that's titled that way. There is an "advanced" course that you're supposed to take after getting some mileage under your belt.

One of my friends paid for an hour's worth of instructor and site time and had him do personal coaching with her. It helped her a lot. Patti, maybe that's something that wouldn't be to expensive and would help you gain a bit of confidence for round 2.

[bmwgrrl]

I took the Riders Edge course when I got back into riding in MI - they taught the classes on Buell Blasts, and had lowered ones for those who felt more at ease with flat footing - I found that class to be very good in terms of teaching - they didn't really care what you wanted to buy, just that you wanted to learn to ride properly. It was expensive (I think 350$ is what I paid) but they weren't so discouraging. My sister took a MSF course and failed it the first time around - passed it the following year, but had mentioned that she liked the instructors much better. I think it's a good thing to drop your bike in the course (not during a test of course) so you get it over with, learn that if it starts to go, let it go, and that it happens...I dumped my bike, and they were like let it go, pick it up, and let's see what led to it. Learn better from "controlled" failures that you can walk away from, than freaking out on the road. My friend too the same course this summer, did really well, but on the second day lowsided on a turn - she was given the choice to retake the whole course at a later date, and she said hell no, just give me a minute...picked herself up, and passed with flying colours. she said the experience was the best thing for her timidness on the bike (she left the timid on the tarmac.)

[PattiS]

Yeah, I definitely need some more one-on-one time, so I can go at my own pace, figure out what I'm doing, ask a lot of questions. There's all the talk about riding your own ride, but the way the class is set up, you can't do that. I knew the bike was too wide and didn't roll easily enough for me, and I knew I was getting too tired after 4 hours with only a couple 5 minute breaks, let alone 5 hours. My body is still killing me today, and I weigh 2 pounds extra today, which means too much muscle inflammation. I should have stuck to my gut and said I either needed a different bike, or that I would take the class on another day when an appropriate bike was available.

I'll talk to the Harley peeps at the Motorcycle show and see how the class is structured. It looks like there are more hours for the higher tuition; if it's spaced out more with breaks it would be worth it. Evergreen Safety has an intermediate course here: http://www.esc.org/body_class_motorcycle_irc.php but you have to have 1000 miles of experience, so it looks more like it's for out-of-state riders to get their Washington endorsement.

There wasn't really a discussion of what led to my bike dump - he just felt like everyone was too tired and he ended the class. They'd been "running behind" on all the exercises all morning, so it was always catch-up, and I know he'd said we were going to save one exercise for the next morning, but then he decided we should go ahead and get through it.

[PattiS]

Quick FYI update on the local Harley class - they use the same format and instructors as the MSF class that I took. There are extra class hours, but they're spent on gear and "getting comfortable with our store". It costs almost 3 times what the MSF class costs.

[Queen]

My local UJM shop offers rentals on the Honda Rebel by the hour or day. Some people will rent it and have them drop it off at the MSF range on a day when classes aren't in session, just so they can practice. Do you have anything like that available??

[PattiS]

Queen, that's a good idea - I'm not finding a rental place, but I'll keep looking. I might just buy a used Rebel. Depending.

[Cyclone67]

Check out Puget Sound Safety -- they have 150 dollar courses for military and WA residents, most are over the weekend with a weeknight classroom session. I highly recommend them, and you will not have a problem if you want to ride a rebel -- they had plenty of them. They also have a class where you can get additional riding time if you need it to practice (for retesting ect). Great instructors and a great program.

[Gitana]

PattiS, where are you in the state?

[kari-star]

Quick FYI update on the local Harley class - they use the same format and instructors as the MSF class that I took. There are extra class hours, but they're spent on gear and "getting comfortable with our store". It costs almost 3 times what the MSF class costs.

I took my course through the local Harley dealer, and I think the thing that made it more valuable for me was it was part of the harley initiative to get more women on the motorcycles - so there was one female instructor and one male, and they were both really patient and helpful, and more importantly, the class was over half female.

If you are able to swing the more expensive class, I would recommend asking Harley when they're going to have a women-specific course so you can try that format out.

that "getting comfortable with their store" thing is ridiculous, and frankly, the extra emphasis on gear? I can't even imagine how much detail they think they're giving you.

[cjacobson]

I had the same negative experience in the MSF course I took in the NY area. What a waste of money. I quit the first day because the course, touted as a beginner's course, was not for beginners, in truth, at all. Everyone in my group had some riding experience. Well, now I do too! I've taken several trips and am ready to go back and do the course...that's the only way to do it. Do not go into the course w/o knowing how to ride already, no matter what anyone says! As for the instructors...they are bad news. I am a high school teacher. I have a Master's in Education and I can tell you that these men do not know how to teach. They push you, they yell at you, they make you feel like an idiot. If you don't already know how to ride, all I can say is: good luck!

[Cyclone67]

Wow, what a difference. My instructors were great, very supporting, excellent knowledge, and definitely know their stuff. No yelling at all unless someone was doing something unsafe. I wish they had some good classes here on Hawaii, As soon as I get back to WA, I'm taking the ERC.

[ridingAK]

I too had a very different experience. Our instructors were very helpful, two guys and a lady. They would tell us what skill we would work on next, one of them would demonstrate the skill, then two of them would go out on the course. One instructor stayed with our group and gave each of us a personal "pep talk" before we did each skill. At the end we would go to one of the two instructors on the course for personal feedback on our performance. It was fun and relaxed.

[Gitana]

I had the same negative experience in the MSF course I took in the NY area. What a waste of money. I quit the first day because the course, touted as a beginner's course, was not for beginners, in truth, at all. Everyone in my group had some riding experience. Well, now I do too! I've taken several trips and am ready to go back and do the course...that's the only way to do it. Do not go into the course w/o knowing how to ride already, no matter what anyone says! As for the instructors...they are bad news. I am a high school teacher. I have a Master's in Education and I can tell you that these men do not know how to teach. They push you, they yell at you, they make you feel like an idiot. If you don't already know how to ride, all I can say is: good luck!

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you. I think it's very important to take the MSF course before heading out on the road. Having one bad experience shouldn't discrouage anyone from taking the course elsewhere, and frankly, I think you recommending that someone not go into the course without riding experience is very bad advice. It worked for you. It may kill someone else. So, newbies reading this, please find an MSF course with instructors whose teaching style works for you.

[PattiS]

I think learning to ride is one of those complicated situations that involve temperament, physical coordination, learning style, and resources that are available to you, and everyone has a different combination of these. My MSF teachers were fine (except the woman who yelled at everyone), the two men were patient and had nerves of steel, and both of them had great senses of humor, but I personally need to digest new information more slowly than the pace of the class. I do agree it's not an ideal situation for absolute beginners - they were running it with a stopwatch, the pace had absolutely nothing to do with how people were doing. The instructors had no control over how long to spend on exercises. The only person who was actually doing well in our class was a young woman who'd ridden a scooter quite a bit. I can't imagine being on my own and learning to ride on the street! I do think I need to not be trying to actually *learn* in the class. I definitely need a bunch of parking lot (NOT ROAD) practice, then I'll go back to the class.

[PattiS]

Also, ridingAK, your class experience was TOTALLY different from mine, and sounds like it was really fun.

[demenshea]

I rarely link solely to other sites, but I believe today's blog post would be advantageous ...read then ride :thumbsup:

Link to Total Motorcycle Beginner's guide to motorcycling (http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/school.htm).

[cjacobson]

God, I miss Seattle! Lived there for 14 years on Lake Union with a view of the Space Needle and then ended up back here in dreary New York. Big mistake. Anyhow, as I posted previously, the MSF course was a nightmare for me, too. The instructors were impatient and not at all helpful. I felt like they were looking down on us plus they were expecting way too much from a TOTAL beginner like me. Trying to remember where all the controls are and what they do plus follow cone instructions is not realistic when you are in a group of 12, all of whom have some experience (but only admitted it to me, not the instructors). The course is billed as 'so wonderful', 'they go so slowly', the instructors are 'so nice'. Sure...if you already know what you're doing! If you don't, they just stand there and keep waving you on...no matter what your problem may be. A total beginner needs individual attention and you sure don't get it. Now, after months of practice and teaching MYSELF mostly with a little help from my brother and b.f., I know how to ride and will take the course again. Do I sound bitter? Sorry. I just hate it when things are misrepresented. I would advise, again, that anyone signing up for the MSF course have some riding experience. Don't go in cold!

[demenshea]

I would advise, again, that anyone signing up for the MSF course have some riding experience. Don't go in cold!

I totally disagree. MSF is for the "new" motorcyclist, teaching basic skills.

I am sorry you had a bad experience, but compared to the thousands who have good experience, you are in the minority.

[kari-star]

gosh, yeah: I had a totally different experience at my course too. it was a Riders Edge course but the instructors were both MSF instructors as well, and I believe the exercises and structure was pretty much the same.

I went into the class totally cold and I'm glad I did, because I didn't have to unlearn any bad habits like some of the others in my group who'd already been out there riding on the street.

one thing that I liked most about my instructors was that they set us up at the beginning by saying: don't worry, all of our exercises are carefully designed to build on the one before. So if you don't get it down pat, don't stress out, because you'll be practicing it as part of the next exercise and by the time we finish all the field work you will have a solid grasp on the fundamentals.

and then at the end they said after we passed: congratulations! now you're certified as skilled at riding around in a parking lot at 20 miles per hour. you all need to practice way more, so don't let this motorcycle endorsement go to your head.

I've heard from friends that their instructors didn't say these two key things to them, and I wish that it was part of the formal script, because it was so helpful to me!

[Astir]

I am really sad to hear about the bad MSF experiences, however I am certain you are in the majority. My MSF experience in Texas was wonderful, Marks MSF experience in Virginia was wonderful, my airplane partners experience in MSF in New Mexico was wonderful, we hear time and again how glad people are to have this available to them.

Please do not discourage people from taking MSF, but do let them know where and with whom you took it is NOT the place to go.

As for not going in cold, that also is NOT good advise. You don't want to unlearn bad habits. Yes, it is frustrating to have different levels, and the majority of the class will move at the pace of the average experience. So if you have a lot of experienced riders you may feel left behind. However it is very common and highly recommended you take the class twice. Even if you pass it the first time. However it is not uncommon to fail the first class, which is COMPLETELY OK, once you have a bit of experience you should take it again. There is no way we can absorb the amount of information - information that will save your life - in two or three days.

cjacobson, I understand you had a terrible experience with your MSF. I am so sad this happened to you. :hug2: I understand the bitterness. Please seek out a different course, there are skills they will teach you that your BF, even as an experienced rider may not remember to teach you. Things he has either forgotten or not realize he is doing.

PattiS - I am so glad you are looking around for another place too!

I took the MSF class after 15 years of riding experience (about 10 years ago) - and you know what? It really opened my eyes to some of the things I was doing wrong. I try to take the Advanced riders course every year - it is a LOT of fun, you get to meet new people, and it makes me feel good about my progression as a motorcyclist.

[ridingAK]

CJ, I'm sorry that you had a negative experience. I'm sorry that PattyS had a bad experience. The vast majority of riders, however, those on this site included, have had a very different experience than what you are describing. To advise someone to teach themselves how to ride is irresponsible. If you can't handle "remembering where all the controls are, plus following cone instructions" you have absolutely no business riding on the street where you have to know where the controls are while dealing with traffic and obstacles in the road without instruction. I'm glad you came through safely, but anyone in that position hitting the road is a danger to themselves and to others. This website is all about sharing ideas and thoughts, BUT as an owner of the site, I can not sit back quietly when someone promotes dangerous and irresponsible behavior. The MSF class is crucial to safe and responsible riding.

[cjacobson]

I am not advocating that one go out into heavy traffic or tear down country roads at 60 miles per hour. I am saying that knowing the basics before going into the course will improve your success greatly. It appears that everyone in MY group already knew that since they had ALL already ridden. The one with the least amount of experience already had two months under her belt. A lot of the students had grown up riding dirt bikes. What I meant (w/o stating) is plenty of parking lot practice at your own pace, not road practice, (though with my veteran rider, I have done that too...very cautiously and at first very slowly on side roads as my permit allows.) Sure, if you want to go in 'cold' you can. But from my personal experience, I would tell a total beginner that it is not going to be easy. I had never ridden any motorized type of bike and was totally clueless. Too much is thrown at you at one time. Too much is expected of someone who is frantically trying to remember where all the controls are, etc. while the instructors are impatiently waiting! I don't dispute the value of the course, I just think a beginning student should prepare himself/herself as much as SAFELY possible before going into the course. I sure wish someone had told ME. The course, as I experienced it, is simply not geared towards total beginners. THAT would require more hands-on teaching and the gradual adding on of information.

[sweptwingnut]

I had the same negative experience in the MSF course I took in the NY area. What a waste of money. I quit the first day because the course, touted as a beginner's course, was not for beginners, in truth, at all. Everyone in my group had some riding experience. Well, now I do too! I've taken several trips and am ready to go back and do the course...that's the only way to do it. Do not go into the course w/o knowing how to ride already, no matter what anyone says! As for the instructors...they are bad news. I am a high school teacher. I have a Master's in Education and I can tell you that these men do not know how to teach. They push you, they yell at you, they make you feel like an idiot. If you don't already know how to ride, all I can say is: good luck!

Cjacobson, I too am sorry you had a bad experience. I trust you will do much better the second time around amongst your colleagues in the instructors field.

However, using and promoting the crowded highway and road system as your location to learn without obtaining the proper endorsement is akin to the local jailbird obtaining legal advice from his cellmate.

Not something I would expect from someone with a Master's degree in education. Sorry to sound harsh, but it is what it is. And it isn't right.

[PattiS]

I'd love to see MSF do two versions of the course - one for people with some riding experience, which I think is what they have now, and one for people with no riding experience, that would have a couple hours on the range, then an hour of classroom time, then a couple hours on the range again, etc. I think there are people who are potentially competent riders that either give up because they're overwhelmed, or go learn on their own and miss things. MSF has added the First Ride class, but it's not a replacement for going through the course more slowly and evenly.

[ridingAK]

I agree PattiS, that would probably be very helpful.

[sweptwingnut]

I'd love to see MSF do two versions of the course - one for people with some riding experience, which I think is what they have now, and one for people with no riding experience, that would have a couple hours on the range, then an hour of classroom time, then a couple hours on the range again, etc. I think there are people who are potentially competent riders that either give up because they're overwhelmed, or go learn on their own and miss things. MSF has added the First Ride class, but it's not a replacement for going through the course more slowly and evenly.

Sounds like you found a nitch in the market. I encourage you to explore it and see if you can make a go of it.

I am currently still STUNNED that we can have people with Master's degrees in education lay claim that the MSF is nothing more than a cart blanche "...waste of money." :wtf:

[sweptwingnut]

.....I've taken several trips and am ready to go back and do the course...that's the only way to do it.....

Absolutely STUNNED that we can have a person who claims to have a Masters degree in education assert that there is only one way to learn and it just so happens to be her way.

:shrug: STUNNED and AMAZED.

[cjacobson]

I think the MSF course is a good thing to do and never meant to discourage anyone from taking it...I, myself, am going to retake it this summer. MY experience was bad...but I didn't mean to demonize the entire program. I was talking about the course I took...though, if I went back to read my comments, I would probably see that I generalized too much, as I tend to do. I just wish someone had advised me to get in some parking lot practice before taking the course. To all those who plan to sign up, I say...listen to the veteran riders to whom I defer! I'm a beginner and can only speak from my perspective/experience. So, I now will shut my mouth and leave the discussion to the pros.

[sweptwingnut]

Thanks for clarifying.

For a single dollar, the MSF provides a, "Pocket-sized booklet contains exercises that can be practiced in a parking lot. Helps develop skills needed to pass motorcycle riding skills test at DMV to receive a motorcycle-operator license."

LINK (https://store.msf-usa.org/Store/MoreDetails.aspx?pid=125)

[PattiS]

Here are some online, too. http://www.idahostar.org/guide/Default.htm

[Astir]

Thanks for clarifying.

For a single dollar, the MSF provides a, "Pocket-sized booklet contains exercises that can be practiced in a parking lot. Helps develop skills needed to pass motorcycle riding skills test at DMV to receive a motorcycle-operator license."

LINK (https://store.msf-usa.org/Store/MoreDetails.aspx?pid=125)

oh awesome! :wootrock: How come I don't remember seeing this before?

[Lion_Lady]

I'd love to see MSF do two versions of the course - one for people with some riding experience, which I think is what they have now, and one for people with no riding experience, that would have a couple hours on the range, then an hour of classroom time, then a couple hours on the range again, etc. I think there are people who are potentially competent riders that either give up because they're overwhelmed, or go learn on their own and miss things. MSF has added the First Ride class, but it's not a replacement for going through the course more slowly and evenly.

The MSF's Basic Riders' Course (BRC) IS, in fact, designed for those who have NEVER been on a motorcycle. It includes 6 hours of classroom instruction, and 9 hours of riding instruction. Some sites complete all the classroom instruction before going on the range, some sites split classroom/range as you describe.

It is unfortunate that when folks register to take the BRC, training sites don't attempt to segregate those with some experience from those with none. I can only guess that the logistics of trying would be mind-numbing. It is also up to the Rider Coaches to pay attention to the students. To NOT let the more experienced students set the pace of the class, but keep the pace at the "beginner" level, as much as is safe and workable.

The BRC is designed to allow MOST students to succeed. As with any garment labeled "one size" it isn't going to be the right fit for ALL students.

P

[Lion_Lady]

I took my first MSF class through Evergreen Safety down in Renton. It was horrible, and I failed. Why? Because everyone in the class already knew how to ride, I was one of the few who had never been on a motorcycle and the instructors were not patient. I fell, twice, which means you're automatically kicked out.

Learning to ride is risky. That's why students sign a liability waiver. Falling once is generally "forgiven" depending on the circumstance. A second fall often means that there is something not "clicking" for the student. Some sites have a hard and fast rule about 2 falls/tipovers: The student gets counseled out. Simple for the site managers. Easy on the Rider Coaches, too.

As a Rider Coach, I've got to keep in mind the other students' safety as well as the student who has fallen. If that student can tell me what happened - so they can avoid making the same mistake again - I'm likely to allow them to continue. While having the conversation, I am also going to try to assess the student's state of mind and stress level. If I have any concerns about the student's focus or mental state, I am more likely to send them home before they get seriously hurt.

P